Subj: Re: [talk-kitchen] Re: [ncte-talk] Honors Students

Date: 4/4/00 10:00:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time

From: suellapalmer@powerup.com.au (Suella Palmer)

Sender: owner-talk-kitchen@ncte.org

Reply-to: talk-kitchen@serv1.ncte.org

To: talk-kitchen@serv1.ncte.org

Ted

I'm a relief teacher in Queensland, Australia, and have found that often

when I've supervised whole classes using the internet that the systems have

not been able to cope, and the students sit watching frozen sites and

achieving little. This is particularly the case when another class is using

the adjacent computer lab. Is this a common problem in your experience?

Suella

-----Original Message-----

From: tnellen@iris.host4u.net <tnellen@iris.host4u.net>

To: ncte-talk@serv1.ncte.org <ncte-talk@serv1.ncte.org>

Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 8:39 AM

Subject: [talk-kitchen] Re: [ncte-talk] Honors Students

>Sharon,

>hear you loud and clear. Understood this many years ago as I figured out

>how to get my 34 students in 5 classes into a computer room of only 16

>computers. split the class in half and such. But basically, knowing that

>reality isn't real only an illusion, i figured it out in spite of all

>odds. It is possible because it has to be done. do give it a go in those

>labs, force the issue, make noise and do it for the sake of the kids.

>accepting what we think is real just has to be questioned.

>I hear what you and teresa and many others are saying and I hope you hear

>me when I say it is possible and can be done. the it of course is getting

>the heterogeneous class into a computer lab. ain't that dificult really,

>if we are talking about reality.

>There are others on ths list who can attest to that.

>TedNellen

>On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, MrsMyth wrote:

>> Theresa- IMHO, the key sentence in your post - at least from my

>> perspective-is "...all kids can achieve but in reality not all kids

achieve

>> at the same pace..." I would agree with that. As with you, my

experience

>> is with classes in which some students are high IQ, others not. I see

the

>> frustration on everybody's faces when I try to be twenty different people

>> and teach to them all. 31 students in a room may be barbaric (as I have

>> been told before) but that IS my reality. There is also a second

teacher's

>> materials in my room, including her desk, filing cabinets, bookcases,

etc.

>> I would love to do more with and for my students, but it isn't going to

>> happen any time soon with the logistics I've been given.

>> Also, from a personal standpoint, I know that I felt major frustration in

>> high school myself especially in math class because I was not able to

grasp

>> some concepts as quickly as others. We were seriously tracked in those

days

>> (I'm 'older than dirt' on a previous post) and as a college-bound

students,

>> I was required to take upper level math. 30+ years later I still feel

>> 'stupid' because I couldn't 'get it' when the others did. Maybe...if I

had

>> been in a 'lower' class, I would have met with some success. Just a

theory.

>> Anyway, I wanted you to know that if you're going to go down in flames,

I'll

>> probably be with you.

>> Sharon

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: Glenn <glenn@peedeeworld.net>

>> To: <ncte-talk@serv1.ncte.org>

>> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 7:45 PM

>> Subject: Re: [ncte-talk] Honors Students

>> > > The current criticism for not including all students in a single

>> classroom

>> > > is that the "low" kids will drag down the "high" kids and in some way

>> > damage

>> > > their education. Does anyone else smell a rat in this logic?

>> >

>> > Nancy,

>> >

>> > I know that this is a hot topic in education at the moment, and I don't

>> have

>> > anything other than my own non-scientific anecdotes to back up what I

>> > about to say, but I hope you'll be open-minded and hear my experience.

>> >

>> > I teach 8th grade. At my school, we have AIG clusters & regular

classes.

>> I

>> > teach 1 communication skills cluster class (there are about 10 AIG

>> > identified kids and about 16 non-AIG identified kids in the class; the

non

>> > AIG kids are high-performing and were recommended by their teachers for

>> the

>> > cluster class); my other class is a regular class with kids whose IQs

>> range

>> > from 78 to above average. This setup works great for me-- I do many of

>> the

>> > same activities in both classes, but in the regular class I slow things

>> down

>> > a bit. I have tried teaching exactly the same way to both classes--

but

>> in

>> > my lower class the average reading level is 5.2 (with the notorious AR

>> STAR

>> > test), and I just CAN'T assign large chunks of reading to be done at

home

>> > (freeing up classtime for other activities related to the reading).

>> >

>> > In my regular class we read a little in class, discuss, do some

>> activities,

>> > read a little more, etc. I have to guide them more than the AIG kids

>> simply

>> > because they have deficits in reading & experience & work ethic. I'm

not

>> > saying that I treat them like they are stupid-- I have read _A Raisin

>> The

>> > Sun_, _Animal Farm_, _The Giver_, _A Christmas Carol_, _Spoon River

>> > Anthology_ and _Johnny Tremain_ with them since Thanksgiving (when I

>> started

>> > working at this school). I do NOT treat them like they are less able

>> > handle complex material-- but I DO guide them through the material

more.

>> >

>> > However, I also teach social studies. In those classes, I have

>> > heterogeneously grouped students. In one class I have a kid with a 152

>> > and a college reading level AND a kid with a 70 IQ who cannot read ANY

>> (and

>> > I mean *literally* ANY) words at all. It is not good for either

child--

>> the

>> > bright kid can't be exposed to half of what I'd like to show him

because

>> the

>> > other kid would be lost. I find myself teaching to the middle of the

>> class,

>> > which is, honestly, good for nobody. And I know it, but with 30 kids

>> > these classes-- 5-8 EC and 5-8 AIG, I'm not sure where in the world to

>> > begin.

>> >

>> > Case in point: we are doing the Civil War right now. We have been over

>> the

>> > strengths/ weaknesses of the North and South and the states that were

part

>> > of both sides, oh, probably ten times now. The lower kids can't even

>> label

>> > a map of the US correctly-- they put North Carolina (my home state)

where

>> > Tennessee is, South Carolina NORTH of NC, and otherwise leave

everything

>> > blank but Texas and Florida, and sometimes Maine. The lower kids OUGHT

>> > learn where states are in relation to each other-- I think that's a

useful

>> > bit of knowledge that they should possess. But I could spend the next

>> three

>> > days going over it while the AIG kids pull their hair out from

>> frustration.

>> >

>> > I DO believe that all kids can achieve, but in reality not everyone

>> achieves

>> > at the same pace at the same stage of development. Grouping kids can

be a

>> > bad thing-- I'll grant you that: elitism and stereotypes don't help

>> anyone.

>> > But no one's needs are met when they are all lumped together.

>> >

>> > Teresa, having a feeling she may be very unpopular after this post

>> > West Middle School

>> > Montgomery County, NC

>> >

>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------

>> > Archives--> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-talk/archives.html

>> > To leave the list, send email to majordomo@lists.ncte.org

>> > In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-talk

>> > Report problems to listmgr@lists.ncte.org

>> >

>> -----------------------------------------------------------------

>> Archives--> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-talk/archives.html

>> To leave the list, send email to majordomo@lists.ncte.org

>> In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-talk

>> Report problems to listmgr@lists.ncte.org

>Ted Nellen 8-) tnellen@tnellen.com

> _o \o_ __| \ / |__ o _ o/ \o/

> __|- __/ \__/o \o | o/ o/__ /\ /| |

> > > / \ ( \ /o\ / ) | (\ / | < \ / \

>One must learn by doing the thing. For though you think you know

>it, you have no certainty until you try.

>~ Sophocles ~ (BC 495-406, Greek Tragic Poet)

>http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/

>http://www.tnellen.com/ted/

>-----------------------------------------------------------------

>Archives--> http://www.ncte.org/lists/ncte-talk/archives.html

>To leave the list, send email to majordomo@lists.ncte.org

>In the first line of the note put: unsubscribe ncte-talk

>Report problems to listmgr@lists.ncte.org

>----------------------------------------------------

>If you wish to escape TALK-KITCHEN, send email to

>majordomo@lists.ncte.org and in the first line of

>the note put: unsubscribe talk-kitchen

>Write to listmgr@lists.ncte.org if you run into trouble.

>----------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------

If you wish to escape TALK-KITCHEN, send email to

majordomo@lists.ncte.org and in the first line of

the note put: unsubscribe talk-kitchen

Write to listmgr@lists.ncte.org if you run into trouble.

----------------------------------------------------

----------------------- Headers --------------------------------

Return-Path: <talk-kitchen-owner@serv1.ncte.org>

Received: from rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (rly-yc02.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.34]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:00:10 -0400

Received: from serv1.ncte.org (serv1.ncte.org [208.223.98.5]) by rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:59:57 -0400

Received: (from majordomo@localhost)

by serv1.ncte.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11395

for talk-kitchen-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:41:54 -0500

X-Authentication-Warning: serv1.ncte.org: majordomo set sender to owner-talk-kitchen@ncte.org using -f

Message-ID: <017001bf9eb8$ba47c520$c0f493cb@default>

From: "Suella Palmer" <suellapalmer@powerup.com.au>

To: <talk-kitchen@serv1.ncte.org>

Subject: Re: [talk-kitchen] Re: [ncte-talk] Honors Students

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:09:30 +1000

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

X-Priority: 3

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3

Sender: owner-talk-kitchen@ncte.org

Precedence: bulk

Reply-To: talk-kitchen@serv1.ncte.org